Laughing Out Loud

retired_bmichaelsen · 11-19-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

The overcomplicated match engine and ever growing reliance on tactics has taken the fun out of the game to me.

Give me CM01/02 any day of the week.

I agree

In real life, the quality of players is slightly more important than tactic. I am not saying tactic that is not important but in FM tactic seems way too important

retired_geoag01 · 11-19-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chopper99:
Right, here we are again. Back to the same problem that seems to plague FM players every year.

While I normally defend the game up to a point and try and help people to change their tactics etc to get rid of problems they might have, it's obvious that this is getting to be a problem for far too many people to just ignore and say that nothing should be done about it.

Firstly though, it's not a 'bug'. Plenty of people, including myself, can create very successful tactics that do not suffer from these problems. So for that reason alone this can't really be described as a gamewide problem with a simple solution.

There are two issues in my opinion. Firstly the problem is caused by the way the match engine represents chances. The fact is, to make the game interesting, more missed chances are shown than would probably occur in a real life game. This ensures that during games you actually do have highlights to view and don't just sit for ages waiting for something to happen. But to avoid stupidly high scoring matches there will be a higher number of missed chances and another problem is that the match engine sometimes makes these chances look better than they probably are. There's no way to tell if the ball bobbled, if the player was off balance or if a defender gave them a bit of a nudge to put them off.

The second issue is the most important one for me. In my experience these problems generally affect people who use attacking tactics. They create plenty of chances but for whatever reason these chances are regularly missed. Now the fact is that there are ways to use the tactics to stop this happening. No arguments here please, this is fact and plenty of people have done so. The problem is that the game gives you absolutely no indication of why these chances are being missed.

This is where feedback is desperately needed, such as an improved assistant manager. This is something myself and a few others have been banging on about for a while now and something I was disappointed not to see implemented in FM08. It would simply involve the assistant offering advice on why things were or weren't working. The quality of the advice would depend on the quality of the assistant and no solutions would be given to problems, the user would have to work this part out for themselves, but they would be given idea why they were missing so many chances or why other things were or weren't happening for them. It should also have the option to be turned off for those that don't want it, then everyone's happy.

So, so far we have two issues - the inability of the match engine to fully represent shot quality, particularly for attacking tactics where a lot of chances are created. And a total lack of feedback. These two combined can understandably lead the player to just see a lot of shots being missed for no apparent reason. They have no idea why these chances are being missed so why wouldn't they blame the game.

So what should be done about these problems? Here I'm not so sure. Should the number of chances created be toned down altogether? So if you've created an attacking tactic and it's not working should you just create less poor chances and less highlights? I'm not sure, if you've got your tactic set up to have shots and, for example, you're playing a quick tempo, direct passing game then you will create chances. It's just that these chances will be more rushed and of a lower quality. So for me if you're creating the chances then you're creating the chances and this should be shown. The problem lies in understanding why these chances miss. So how could this be better represented by the match engine? Well until the technology's there for a really good 3D match engine to be implemented (something I personally don't want to see until it can be done really well) then there isn't really any way for chances to be represented any better than the are now.

So that leaves us with feedback. If the assistant manger said after a match 'well we had a hell of a lot of shots but a lot of these shots were rushed and of a poor quality' then not only do you know what went wrong but you have clues as to what to do about it. I think this will go a long way towards solving what in my opinion is a problem understanding the tactics and how they are represented in the match engine.

The way i see it with the updated Beta Patch, you are better off using a half arsed tactic that barely works, in order to score more of your shots on target and get your keeper to make a few saves.

If you put together an all conquering tactic that dominates possesion, has a massive % of passes completed and gets you 20-30 shots a game compared to the oppositions 2 or 3, then you are guaranteed to struggle to score and let in almost every shot the opposition has on target.

I've used the full range one end to the other of the sliders and tried all different player instructions, tm, playmaker etc, etc and the outcome is always the same, hard to score easy to concede.

Do i really have to make do with a poorly put together tactic just to get my players scoring at an average rate similar to the AI and allow the opposition multiple chances, just to get my keeper to make a save?.

The answer at the moment with the latest Beta Patch is a resounding YES!, if i implement the good tactic thats going to dominate and create a whole host of good chances and allow the opposition very few, then its as if the AI see's this as cheating which leads to these ridiculous game stopping results one after the other, in which your team are likely to average only 1 goal in every 10-12 shots on target and concede every 1 in 2?.

Can you imagine Fergie or Wenger implementing this procedure when they set out their team instructions and tactical set-up?, NO, because thats ridiculous, every Manager would love to be creating 2 dozen shots a game and only allow the opposition 1 or 2, as that would almost guarantee them a win in every game they played in real life.

retired_bpilla · 11-19-2007, 07:32 PM

Great post Chopper! I just said virtually the same thing over in the T&T forum.

ArseneFM, I actually do agree with you though. The game is way too dependent on tactics. When I have to scout a L1 squad for 10 minutes as Liverpool and start most of my first team for the FA Cup 3rd Round so I can ensure a victory, it get's a little absurb. I should be able to throw up virtually any default tactic and win against that side.

retired_justina · 11-19-2007, 07:50 PM

SO there are a couple of schools of thought on this.
1)The match we are shown isn't representative of the calculations going on(it doesn't matter that you have 5/10/20 good chances because what you see isn't whats actually happening). This means that although you may be apparently dominating a match your tactics (going into the match) aren't correct for the situation so those 5 one on ones were meaningless you were never going to win. LAME. This does however mean that the use of tactics can change things theoretically, although given the lack of feed back of any kind its hard to be the tactical genius some claim to be on these forums.
2)The goal/shots ratio is artificially limited in some way, be it goalkeepers being good or strikers being bad it doesn't matter maybe SI wanted interesting games but with vaguely realistic results (although that didn't go to well with the 8.0.0 release).
3) My own favourite outsider theory, LUCK, in some(more than you think) games luck is a HUGE influence, for example pick any pro evo game and look at shooting, shooting is NOT an art form in that game, you can have SOME effect on it but you CANNOT say right thats going in the bottom left corner. SO when two players play each other LUCK WILL BE INVOLVED. I suggest to you kind forum goers that maybe the people who are constantly losing despite dominating are UNLUCKY and those who are winning via superior tactical neus MAY JUST BE LUCKY. Just a theory liek the other two.

I have no idea whats going on and actually I think given the number of calculations/contributing factors probably SI don't even know for sure. The game is playable and enjoyable but can be horrendously aggravating.

retired_geoag01 · 11-19-2007, 07:59 PM

I suggest reading Amoroqs post in the "Shot Ratio" thread.

I think he's well and truly hit the nail on the head, which in game terms is a big bust for FM08 in its present state!.

retired_k-dog · 11-19-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CaptainOfIndustry:
Jeezluiz, this game cracks me up.

Check out my last 3 games with Werder Bremen, season 5 in the game, my 2nd season with the club.

vs. Stuttgart

vs. Inter

vs. Schalke

This is getting silly. I love a good challenge and I love that the game is supposed to be more difficult following a good 1st season, but this is just stupid. There must be another way for the developers to make this reranking business work.

I actually think this does indeed need looking at re: FM08.

I appreciate there might be quite specific reasons for results like these posted, but I think this is an issue which could need looking at.
Me and my friends think these kind of stats are occuring quite frequently in a single season.
To get stats like this 5 times in a season (3 of my friends have also had very similar results many many times in their first season) is definately not common in the real world, but ofcourse, entirely possible.
I think it might need looking at, because such stats definately occur more often in FM08 than in other incarnations. And to me, and a few others, it might be a tad unrealistic.
Definately worth another look I feel.

Scotty

retired_taustin · 11-19-2007, 08:17 PM

I dunno man...i must be the only person with a decent copy of FM, cuz i never have any problems with imbalances or AI cheating...

retired_geoag01 · 11-19-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chas (Psyatika):
I dunno man...i must be the only person with a decent copy of FM, cuz i never have any problems with imbalances or AI cheating...

Any chance you could do me a copy mate?.

retired_ileana · 11-19-2007, 08:32 PM

I think the main problem is that even veteran players don't make very good decisions in FM. If you give them creative freedom, or tell them to shoot long, they muck up their playing style and take stupid shots. I don't know what the solution is, except to force players to conform to your tactics. Takes the fun away from managing world class players, but oh well. Give the lower leagues a shot.

Me personally, I set my tactics to playing wide, attacking down the middle, with passing style and tempo weather-dependent. It spreads the defense wide, then sets up chances in the middle. I get a pretty good shot-goal ratio that way.

retired_Gtor3636 · 11-19-2007, 08:40 PM

This is great! I rarely visited the forums in the past, which I do a bit more nowadays, and I realised that many people have the same problems. I was talking about unreasonable performances in another topic, I concluded that the developers tried to make leagues more interesting and I see that many of my colleague managers feel the same!

It hasn't to do with tweaking tactics and how many clicks to the left is the creative freedom of your right full back etc. The game just holds you back on purpose. I never get annoyed though, if the game engine just calculated the matches based on attributes and tactics, a good team would never lose. Because it can't find a way to represent real life were millions of factors affect performances, it just has this trick to keep you from constantly winning and getting bored. If you need a result or have been badly treated, just play it again (sorry purists)!

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