[Amaroq]

Yeah, woah! This statement:

Originally posted by wasq:
I think many players would like the opportunity to try their hands on ticket pricing, promotional ideas, sponsorships and more details in general.

really took us off-target from the original request, which was for more information, not for control ..

.. and stands on its own merits quite well. Breakdowns into more detail might help us understand where we're going wrong.

The "Other" category has been something which we've often heard people ask for more detail on .. even if SI don't want to break it down to include every little detail that they are theoretically modeling there, there are still several human manager influenced details which might warrant observation:

<LI>Costs of scouting
<LI>Costs of physiotherapy / "send to specialist" moves

Also, IRL, a tax report contains a bit more detail than "what the tax was" - it would be nice to get a slight idea of what triggered large taxes, when we're up against them .. and also to see any 'tax breaks' we're receiving, for example, 'capital improvements' in those countries where you could write off your stadium expansion.

Things like this would help us to understand the impacts of our decisions better.

Another, similar, "drill down" idea would be on the Wage Bill screen, or whatever you call it, where you get the number of players in each "usage" category, and their average salary. It would be nice to be able to 'expand' that, to, say, see all of my "Key Players" with their contract information in an easy-to-digest form.

[Sheer Class]

Originally posted by stevehep:
Do you mean different types of Sponsorships (As most big clubs have more than 1 agreement)?

I like that idea!

Already in

[lonestar007]

People want a game that mirrors real life but also one where they can achieve unrealistic results; and then these same people complain about reality.

The financial side of the game, as is, is simply not flexible or dynamic enough to deal with the human manager, what he can achieve, and what occurs over a span of 20 game years or more.

Ideally the AI could do this, and a human manager taking a conference side to the premiership with successive promotions would be met with appropriate financial growth and contribution. Stadiums would be expanded, 300+ million would not just sit in a bank account, wage structures would be redone, etc...

The game cannot do this right now. It fails. Need proof? There is a thread doing an AI experiment where a conference side is given money, a stadium, fans, great players. etc... Given this, almost any human manager would have this team in the premiership, but the AI is unable to deal with these events and still plays the club as a conference club.

I am all for more human control, mainly because I am tired of my success being hampered or constrained by the game not being able to deal with me and my success. That, and I know I could make more money than the present model and the team's chairman if I had the control. How many "real life" managers can say that?

[delibey]

Human managers exploit the financial side of the game easily. Whenever they have money they go out and and simply buy/sign players and arrange every single detail of transfers. Leave the finance improvements alone, or else you'll have a realistic game on your hands where you as the manager can't buy any player you want for the exact price you want. Obviously SI will have a riot on their hands if that happens. This is the only part of the game they haven't made any serious advances toward realism because to be perfectly honest they would have trouble selling a management game in which transfers are not controlled by the player. Well, relatively anyway. Many people buy the game not because they want to actually try managing a team and analysing opponents and applying tactics accordingly. They buy players and maybe put in a few instructions and enjoy the game. This may be generalisation but it's the truth for the majority. A more detailed financial model would require more realism and that's just not going to happen anytime soon with this part of the game.

[dingo]

Originally posted by stevehep:
Do you mean different types of Sponsorships (As most big clubs have more than 1 agreement)?

I like that idea!

well in RL the clubs do have different sponsorship, TV,on the T-shirt,in the stadio ( all the varius bords around the pitch), the sport equipment supplyer ( like Nike,umbro,diadora,etc)

and many more it would be nice if we can have more to do with the financial side since the board expect you to keep the bank balance on check.

Since that is ALMOST impossible to sell your players ( the high demand are only for the good one and the raising stars), you can make extra revenue out of the sponsorship deals and merchandising.

ATm it seem ridiculs the Sponsorship deals they are waaaay to low and dont make ANY impact to your budget.

[nick...]

I would like to see the balance and profit/loss (not in detail) for all clubs from the previous year.

This is publicly avaliable for all Ltd or Plc companies (ie. all uk clubs, not sure on rules in other contries) for £1 from companies house, and the vast majority are also avaliable for free online (I have taken to reading them to get a feel for new clubs I'm managing).

It can't be abused, because they are not the most up to date financial results, but give a more in depth feel to the health of other clubs than rich/secure/insecure/bankrupt.

[isuckatfm]

1 - I'd like the ability to expand my finance headers whether i'm in Income or Expenditure. The ability to expand them if you choose to, caters for both the users who are happy as it is and those who want more detail. I'll use some easy ones as examples;

Gate Receipts - Then drill down by game
Players Sold - Just split by player
Prize Money - Again, by competition
Bonuses Paid - Again, aplit by player

This is just a simple idea, which can be applied to most of the current headings in finances, but i feel it gives the user more information.

2 - I would like to be able to refer to my finances of more than just this year and last year. Many other screens in the game allow you to rotate by season, i think this would be a good idea in finances too.

:thup: especially the bonuses part. Playing lower league and with tight finances makes balancing the books a pain in the arse if I'm honest. If the game makes it necessary to consider these aspects than surely there could be an in built calculation model that can do the number crunching for me instead of having to do it myself outside of the game using Excel or a calculator ( or do I play the game way too seriously )

To the suggestions of involvement in negotiating sponsorship, ticket prices etc. I say :thdn:. As far as I know the game calculates all of this based on reputation, fan base etc. which is then combined with the hidden 'business' attribute of the chairman (to simulate his negotiating skills and business savvy) to decide on a number. For me this is realistic way of doing it. I don't believe (although I could be wrong) that managers get involved with this in real life. In any case just because you would be given the option to choose these doesn't mean the potential income you could get would be higher.

One major issue with finances currently is the way when a manager takes on a new job they appear to get the blame for existing financial woes.

I wonder is there no way to create an extra bit of code that records the balance at the time a manager is hired and then compare the balance relative to this?

It could be a simple addition so the board effectively judge the balance as being at 0 at the moment the manager is hired. So take the current bank balance in the memory and add the balance at the time the manager is hired. Then use this value to evaluate financial performance. This could be applied only when a club is in the red to avoid potential problems when a human manager takes over at a club with a healthy balance.

Not sure if that makes sense in words so maybe a numerical example would better illustrate:-

Get offered and accept a job at Club A. At the time I accept their balance is -5m. The code checks if it is a negative value and if it is it records it. Say 1 month in the balance has increased to -2m. The board finance confidence code would instead make an evaluation of -2m -(-5m) = 3m, and then recognises that you have in fact contributed to generating 3m in profits since you took the job. Thus their statement in the confidence section might read 'Although the board is still concerned with the current balance, we are pleased with your efforts to reduce this and hope that you continue your frugal approach to managing the finances'. It could be made a little more complex and actually be assigned a % reduction of the debt and then the statement could have a range of emotions e.g. disappointed, pleased, delighted etc.

Or it could be stated at the time of the job offer that one of the expectations of the board is that the manager ensures that the club is running a positive balance within x number of years? It could be like the long term competition expectations.This way at least the human manager knows what to expect. Having never been in that situation myself I don't know if it is in the game already so if it is apologies.

The above paragraph might be how it would be implemented within the current system where the manager is blamed financially for decisions the board make (new stadiums in particular). In the case of ultra realism it could be an expectation that the manager meets a net transfer spend target so as to contribute to running down the debt.

To those who give 'realism' as an argument against managers being involved in the 'new stadium/expansion' decision I say fair enough as long as the board make realistic decisions. In real life the decision to do these things is based on financial modelling but in the game I am not convinced that it is very accurately modelled. A few examples which have made me wonder about this include:-

-I have read of people going into debt due to new stadium payments and getting fired because of this.

-I had an experience where my board decided to spend 80m on a new stadium with a capacity of 24,000 when the current stadium holds 19,000.You don't have to be Warren Buffett to see that 80m for an extra 5,000 seats is a poor investment decision.

-first season in the Premiership and without me requesting the Leeds board decide to expand the stadium by 15000 seats at a cost of 19m or so. This reduced my potential transfer budget and could have been spent on getting players of the quality to keep me in the Premiership. The decision could then be made after the first season in the Premiership if I survive. I don't see the point of increasing capacity by 15,000 seats which takes 6 months to complete and then I get relegated and my attendances plummet back to Championship levels of 30,000 on average.

Maybe all of those examples can be attributed to chairmen just making bad decisions bt again I don't think this is a true reflection of real life. As I mentioned before in real life I would assume that the board would hire financial experts to go over the books, forecast future revenue streams/expenditures, and make a decision based on that.

My example above of 80m being spent on a new stadium with only 5,000 extra seats suggests to me that the game doesn't make these decisions based on a very complex financial model. But hey I could be wrong

[Mister Z]

Originally posted by isuckatfm:
To the suggestions of involvement in negotiating sponsorship, ticket prices etc. I say :thdn:. As far as I know the game calculates all of this based on reputation, fan base etc. which is then combined with the hidden 'business' attribute of the chairman (to simulate his negotiating skills and business savvy) to decide on a number. For me this is realistic way of doing it. I don't believe (although I could be wrong) that managers get involved with this in real life. In any case just because you would be given the option to choose these doesn't mean the potential income you could get would be higher.

I think this is a good option in combination with lets call it financial board requests. In this way you can have some influence, but don’t have your calculator beside the keyboard.

You can ask the board for a type of financial action, for example find a kit sponsor for this year, and the board (or commercial director) will take action based on the commercial skills indicator.