retired_steevo93

Again: I'm talking about people who can consistently produce material that satisfies these LCD demands. I've already acknowledged that many, less talented artists will always stumble upon hits thanks to the spirit of amateurism in pop music.

What we're discussing are enduring talents. Why do most rock musicians seem to fall at the 2nd or 3rd hurdle, while some endure? Because those that endure tend to be genuinely good musicians, with a highly developed sense of what makes a great pop song. Do you REALLY, truly think that pop music is entirely accounted for by mindless saps making shallow music for other mindless saps? I would be amazed if so, with your background.

"My Humps" might be the work of a great songwriter, it might be the work of someone given a chance to release a pop single, who then does OK. I don't know, and there's no need for me to find out. There is no great cultural movement behind Blue, but they quite possibly have a great team of songwriters to thank for their inevitable commercial success.

There's no need for me to define a great pop song because what we're talking about are great songWRITERS. The issue of enduring success.

Why need I be talking about Porter and Bacharach? Why not David Bowie? Paul Simon? Lennon and McCartney? Stock, Aitken and Waterman? By and large, anyone who churns out pop hits on a consistent basis knows what they're doing on a level way, way above and beyond that of their LCD audience.

retired_pyothers1

Went to see Chuck Berry not so long ago, and he was still fb tbh.

retired_steevo93

As for your all-but-pointless list of songs that spent a long time on the charts:

Once again. Many songs will spend a long time on the charts, for various reasons. They might come from a popular film, or ride the wave of some other craze. The fact that they were hits doesn't make them examples of genius songwriting. Consistently writing hits, though, does make you a good pop songwriter, and to dispute that there's real talent in that is lunacy.

retired_the gizmo

haha s/a/w

kings of the mediocre. the braintrust behind bananarama AND rick astley.


why do most rock musicians fall at the 2nd hurdle? because they were **** and they were supremely lucky to make it even that far. and as I've already shown, most of the ones that pass that hurdle by and large start wandering about to other genres 'cause who the **** wants to stick with pop music past the 2nd hurdle?


I'm still sticking by my request of cited examples over the last 25 years. if s/a/w is the best you got, you're really in trouble. the old guard of simon and mccartney are hardly indicators of pop today. paul mccartney doesn't release pop albums, he releases paul mccartney albums so paul mccartney fans can sit and listen to paul mccartney do his schtick. it has no impact on anything else in music around him. hardly qualifies as "culturally relevant".

and for the love of god, don't pull a sebs and try to discuss the merits of girls aloud.

retired_steevo93

I'm quite capable of discussing the merits of Girls Aloud!

You agree that most rock musicians are sh!t and lucky to get past the 2nd hurdle. Good. I disagree that it's not worth sticking with rock music beyond that, because it is, if you do it really well.

If you want examples of consistently successful songwriters over the last 25 years, but you're squeamish at the mention of s/a/w, then we're in for a rocky ride. I don't care how simple or inane their songs were. YOU write one! It still takes considerable musicianship to do it consistently. I'm a massive theory geek, I love to be snobbish about chord progressions with 3 key centres and blah blah blah blah but I have immense respect for the simple knack of pop songwriting because I understand what kind of a command of the language of popular music it takes to produce it really well, on demand. My favourite music to analyse is probably Monk, the Yellowjackets or Weather Report at the moment, and I have great respect for the technical musicianship there, but my favourite song is probably "Don't Worry Baby" by the Beach Boys, a 3 chord wonder with a simple key change up a tone for the chorus. The lyrics are banal, the music is ridiculously straightforward but it's so succinct and perfect for the time it came out that I can just sit and marvel at how perfect a pop song it was. Lots of people tried to do that kind of thing at the time, not many at all succeeded in doing it that well.

I don't want to have to go and Google whoever were the songwriters behind lots of great pop acts over the last 25 years, because that's what I'd be doing. I won't insult you by pretending to know their names, and everything they've done. I don't know because their names very often aren't on the records. I'll do the Googling if you want though, ok?

Meanwhile, I want you to come out and claim that you think pop songwriting (on a consistently successful, professional basis, mind) is a mindless, inane pursuit with no great talent attached to it. If you can bring yourself to write it off, then you go down in my estimation as a musical person, even if you go up slightly as a tenacious, argumentative swine. And I do appreciate tenacious, argumentative swine.

retired_sera

How did a thread about inspirational and influential rock musicians in their 20s slowly losing their ability as they get into their 30s transform into an argument about whether Eiffel 65 were any good?

retired_amaynirvana

You see, I would never call Neil Young anything other than a rock artist. He's experimented with other genres, but it still comes under the term 'popular music,' for me. Harvest/ATGR obviously inspired by folk roots, but they're pop songs. He'll have been influenced by other genres at different times, but the instrumentation, structure, subject matter, dictates that he writes 'popular music.'

retired_nabrooks

Vince Clarke worth a shout ?

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retired_the gizmo

name these musicians. use examples over the last 25 years. it's my contention that there were never as many of those musicians as most people think and that they're all from the last generation or earlier. they simply do not exist today.

retired_nashfine

Neil Young keeps on rocking in the "free" world.

Infact all of Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young still produce good music and have done for years.

the debate in to genre's is not exactly the best one as most of the artists that are still producing good music are singer song writers. Therefore they are going to have influences from many different things.