retired_roxy

This thread makes very interesting reading for me, although whenever i try to write an opinion on the subject it turns into drivel.

I think the vast majority of the people who cause the problem are the younger members of the boards, a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but it seems to be a lot of the under 16's have no real grasp of dedication or commitment. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I don't really think that much more can be done other than raising the age limit for the message board, and thats not going to happen.

Jeez, that was my best attempt so far, and that was rubbish too!!

retired_roxy

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:
also i still feel that this is an online forum, covering for all.

Should we offer a service for those who dont want a clan game

who dont wanta long term game,

whould the drop in game then sound more plausible?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always thought seperate forums would be a good idea, for long term and short term games, that way they could be seperated more easily.

retired_hollieo

Goldy, it is of course accepted that if people can’t be arsed, then there is nothing that can be done about it. That’s why the clan system that was introduced is effective, as it does sort out the committed from the uncommitted.

However, it cannot be denied, and I’ve seen it supported by other clan users, that some people do want to play online, yet have a basic disregard for the efforts of the host or the impact on an online game that they have, by turning up for one night then disappearing after affecting the game. You have hosted so you obviously recognize this problem. Spending three to four hours buying players etc, then to find that one has just left, influences the game dependant on signings. To see these people turn up again and again looking for games, without recourse is unacceptable and particularly galling to the host and participants. Why should I just have to accept this, and why should a person not be informed on joining online, that a deterrent is there to prevent this behaviour. If this is so widely recognized, why is nothing being done? Why should these people not be put down, when they are in effect spoiling honest players (which should be the priority) from having a full and complete online experience. There is no justification for this at all. No-one is suggesting the blacklist should be an easy accessory. By going through proper channels it could be implemented.

I’ll ignore the ideas stuff as I have provided ideas, been challenged, knocked ideas and again been challenged. I’m only on this thread to provide feedback from my own experiences, so that makes my view as worthwhile as the guy I disagree with. Newcomers can only be helped by facilitation, and although I think drop in games would not work or last, the most important point is that moderators/helpers need to take a more pro-active approach to helping these people out. That is, I think a twice weekly chat session and official help would be more productive than an example game. Just an opinion as is the drop in games idea. Again I don’t think this would help re: potential hosts, as drop ins wouldn’t be hosting…See above for reasons against this idea…

retired_gallant_pat

niall your ideas are welcome, like i said this is a thread for ideas, and opinions. This is a good healthy debate, as obviously alot of the cmo community have conflicting ideas on how this forum should be run, so expect to be challenged

You are backing up your argument well. Like i said this thread will hopefully contain lots of ideas and arguments. Its these arguments that help me make a decision also to what will work and not, incase i have overlooked something.

Ok i'm off to bed to much port here

retired_dogs2son1

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeafParrot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:
also i still feel that this is an online forum, covering for all.

Should we offer a service for those who dont want a clan game

who dont wanta long term game,

whould the drop in game then sound more plausible?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always thought seperate forums would be a good idea, for long term and short term games, that way they could be seperated more easily.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel the Online forum covers both well enough at the moment. If you only had a Short-term forum can you imagine the carnage that would occur on it. It would only increase the divide that occurs in the Online forum as it stands. With everything in one forum it can be well managed by all those that choose to do so.

retired_rover2clover

It shouldnt be just mods/helpers that help the newcomers, its also you guys the regulars that should make an effort in helping them, this way they can see that they are being watched by the community and hopefully it will improve some interaction between regulars and newcomers and also new and old clans.

If a blacklist was created it would have to be very well policed and a lot of different things will have to catergorized (if thats a word ((probably mispelt)) for what makes a player to be out in the blacklist. I mean how far is too far, twice? three times? Have you got any ideas on what kind of catergory's should be in the black list?

We would need a panel (which could be made up of a mod, helper and regular) to review the evidence (so a requirement for blacklist could be screenshots etc). Then like a court he could be given bail (A trial to see how he does within the next X amount of time, the feedback can be from hosts to games that this person applies too, if course they don't apply to play in any games, his time can be extended etc). Or Guilty and he's blacklisted.

Just also thought, this blacklist could be just viewable to mods & helpers, then a host could request the information from us to see if X player is on the black list or not. (That way it would keep arguments out of the forum between a player and a host who do not agree with one another and the problem their having).

Just some ideas on that subject anyhow as I can see you quite like that idea

retired_hollieo

Goldy, your first point is nonsense when you get to the crux of the matter. :p For example, EPL Challenge and Ex-Champions clan (which is also very good) have yet to achieve any official acknowledgement despite being running for ages, providing constant reports, and striving to meet the requirements set down by CM Online rules. Why should it be the responsibility of said participants to encourage growth in a CM online community, when no encouragement is provided to them? Why should we bother when, speaking for my own clan, only Dog’s (or Mr. X, or whatever!) had the decency to say good luck. Is it our responsibility, or indeed yours? (I stress: I don’t speak for ex-champions fan). To me this is a pass the buck question.

Apart from that I agree with your Blacklist queries. I can’t stress enough the importance of how only clan hosts/trusted players should have the power to “nominate” a supposed blacklisted person to the “authorities”. In my opinion, the host forwards the name with a reason for blacklisting. If the host is known as a committed gamer, and forwards the reason, then the “mod jury etc” could sit and either agree or reject the proposal, You’d have to make up your own rules re: time limit, although I agree it should only be known on demand. However, Goldy, I’ll maintain that although this idea has drawbacks, it is best used as a deterrent. This ties in with the introduction chat room meeting, where all the rules and expected behaviour is spelt out. So, Dogs, yes I believe the hands on approach is more effective. Only when these rules are spelt out will people consider how to go about approaching this forum. As an IT person myself, it wouldn’t take much effort from SIGAMES for all new users' details to be emailed to dogs for a newcomer meeting.

[This message was edited by BelfastNiall on 28 December 2003 at 3:07.]

[This message was edited by BelfastNiall on 28 December 2003 at 3:09.]

retired_rover2clover

I either havn't explained the first part right or you havn't understood it correctly.

We know the situation at the moment, which of course you have again pointed out in the first part of your post, what I was trying to explain is that for the future not only should mods/helpers give more encouragement but that also it would be nice for established users to also show some signs of it.

Oh and also, don't try and tell me that its only Dogs encouranging, I have said plenty of good lucks myself as has Marlow, but i guess as it wasnt in your thread you've blatantly ignored that part and shows that you don't view other clans apart from your own.

As i say, we know what the current situation is and you've stated in your post, my post was about an idea we could strive towards for the future.

Eileeno671

OK, every idea needs a champion, Niall has his “Dead Man Walking List” and after this ….

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:
Deano, nice to hear a few ideas coming from yourself. However, I feel "Drop In Games" are a waste of time and I'll predict now that the idea would last about as long as a Wolves clean sheet at Highbury. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have developed an Alex Ferguson siege mentality about drop in games, so here goes …

First off, how is this ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

You've also got to factor in the age level of these new recruits. They are young and looking for action.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
satisfied by ....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:

So why not organise a twice weekly session on chat to introduce new players to the online scene and each other, explain the rules, how it is different from single player and so on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It isn’t is it. I did like the idea of the twice weekly meet and greet chat, as more people would probably attend this than they would read the FAQ's and their ilk, but I really don’t get how this solves the "dive in feet first mentality" a lot of users have on this forum when they first post it also doesn’t quench their immediate thirst for action, and it was then followed by this ….

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:
This ties in with the introduction chat room meeting, where all the rules and expected behaviour is spelt out. So, Dogs, yes I believe the hands on approach is more effective. Only when these rules are spelt out will people consider how to go about approaching this forum. As an IT person myself, it wouldn’t take much effort from SIGAMES for all new users' details to be emailed to dogs for a newcomer meeting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It now seems that what was a good idea has morphed into a you must do this, you mustn’t do that session, I don’t see how this will inspire.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:
Carl i like your idea but i believe it would take a heavy commitment to find experienced hosts that would be able to dedicate the time outside their clan games to facilitate these drop in games to give newcomers a taster.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed, but if the regulars/experienced boys and girls of this forum, don’t take the time to put something back then we will not move forward.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr X:
A compromise would be goldy's idea of the monthly tournement which would be alot easier to manage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don’t agree on this. Firstly, it only addresses the problem for those new users who are prepared to wait until the tournament starts. Now I don’t know what percentage of users this would entice, but judging by the amount of “game on now” posts we get, I would guess at very few. Also I would point to the EMA tourny, now I am not saying it is a poor concept but I think it is only for more experienced and more patient people, take this as an example …..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Excert from EMA Tourny Thread - 1st Round Results
1) t o m m y b o y vs theshakers theshakers wins via default BYE
2) Catenaccio vs ChampHolic Awaiting Update
3) robdaman77 vs amcno03 robdaman77 wins via Default BYE
4) Paul Bray vs Falcone Paul Bray wins via Default BYE
5) marlow vs Sandokan Sandokan wins via 2 league titles with Gravesend
6) jholmes69uk vs Stu McGarva jholmes69uk wins via Default BYE
7) marbuck2 vs GoldfoX marbuck2 wins via default BYE
8) joe Westhead vs watford dan In 2nd Season
9) fifamasteruk vs Leviathan1886 Leviathan1886 wins via default due to opponent being banned from forum for supports piracy
10) Powlay vs ROWEY Powlay wins via default BYE
11) m5_rcc vs ajlive4ever m5_rcc wins via default BYE
12) exchampionsfan vs KevinLFC On Season 1
13) Thiggy vs [RoN] [RoN] wins via default BYE
14) AsherDSSc vs Rdysn5 Rdysn5 wins via default BYE
15) mmaattyy vs Dee Both Players are eliminated from the tourny mmaattyy because he is banned from forum and Dee Pulled out.
16) pooly vs patmoore patmoore wins via default BYE
17) Shagwell vs youllnevawalkalone Shagwell wins via default BYE
18) craiguk12000 vs Hyrule_King Hyrule_King wins via default BYE <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now by my poor addition, 11 of the 18 first round matches were decided by someone defaulting, and this is with a lot of people who have played the game online before, trying to organize a similar thing for new users would be a nightmare, and not something that will succeed into enticing people to play online.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goldy:
It shouldnt be just mods/helpers that help the newcomers, its also you guys the regulars that should make an effort in helping them, this way they can see that they are being watched by the community and hopefully it will improve some interaction between regulars and newcomers and also new and old clans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:
Goldy, your first point is nonsense when you get to the crux of the matter. :p For example, EPL Challenge and Ex-Champions clan (which is also very good) have yet to achieve any official acknowledgement despite being running for ages, providing constant reports, and striving to meet the requirements set down by CM Online rules. Why should it be the responsibility of said participants to encourage growth in a CM online community, when no encouragement is provided to them? Why should we bother when, speaking for my own clan, only Dog’s (or Mr. X, or whatever!) had the decency to say good luck. Is it our responsibility, or indeed yours? (I stress: I don’t speak for ex-champions fan). To me this is a pass the buck question. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with you Niall, in that there should be something for clans to aspire to, such as an officially recognized tag or the like, and there could/should be more encouragement from the mods and helpers at more regular intervals within a clan thread upto the point they get the official accolade, but what Goldy says is correct, it cant just be down to the Mods and Helpers to make this forum a success, as the host of a great clan, it must also be down to you and others like you and for that matter all users to encourage and help the other clans who are starting out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:
I'll be honest, this is ridiculous. Drop in games will offer little as I said. It may have some short term success but as for longevity, I very much doubt it. You'd be much better trying to help newcomers organise a game, through positive interaction, and through the twice weekly chatroom, than what I have heard tonight. This whole thread is not supposed to be about the "established clans, the Scots, EFB, EMA", but about how to integrate new users, end of...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BelfastNiall:
This is precisely because drop in games have no longevity<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But that is precisely the point. The idea behind them is a taster, but it also gives new users a chance to meet other new users, who are available to play on that given day, build up friendships and possibly go onto create their own clan. You could also combine it with your weekly chatroom idea or have a question and answer session while they are getting their taster. This idea wont get rid of all the time wasters we get here, but it will at least make the people trying online play out for the first time aware of just how slow it can be at times along with other facets that they may not be aware of, for instance, consideration for other players for instance in not searching for players when it is time to continue, I think they would understand this more if they experienced it first hand rather than a mod or helper spouting about this in an irc channel

After all that, I propose a change to the drop-in game idea, so I will change it to …..

World Cup/Euro Championship Drop-In Games

These could be started and finished on the same evening, so the night isn’t just wasted playing two or three plague games, it is also an alternative to the tournament idea. This does dumb down the original idea but it will still be a useful introduction to online play

retired_zjx510

Yeah agree fall-in games are no good idea. With my clan being in a break till 4th January I would be interested to (help) organize an Euro 2004 Online tournament for the 2 & 3 January. I am only not able to host as I think we need to play this on large database to give all the countries enough players to choose. It would be fun to give all the 16 countries a human manager by draw. I am not sure though if you can add managers to countries where the leagues are not chosen to run.
Anybody interested to help or host please reply here so we can start the organisation the next days. I would like to add quite some newbies to the game. Maybe if there are more than 16 people we can arrange two different groups with the same save game to play the tournament.