playmaker

There is nothing wrong with the CA/PA system. The problme is that people know about it and then make judgements according to that. If you introduce a different system you will have exactly the same problem. People will be able to see how the game regulates player improvment using a scout program and instead of playing the game as it was intended start playing it according to the 'magic numbers'.

When I play the game, I deliberately avoid looking at CA/PA it means I have to judge their potential myself and it makes the game much more enjoyable. I've got a couple of youngsters now that I think will make it to the first team, but I don't know because I have no idea what their PA is.

Neb

I never look at CA/PA either.

The AI does though... Otherwise how would it know which of my strikers is supposedly better, even though the 'worse' one plays really well and the other 'better' one plays really badly?

Neb

Another update on my fake goalkeeper!

He's now 20, concedes 2 goals a game for derby, England under 21 first choice.

He's transfer listed for £6.25m and Arsenal and Chelsea are interested. He's still rubbish.

His Attributes look like this. (all mental attributes are 20, except composure and concentration)

Goalkeeping Attributes
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Aerial Ability | 4
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Command Of Area | 7
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Communication | 7 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Eccentricity | 20 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Handling | 6 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Kicking | 7 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| One On Ones | 8 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Reflexes | 8 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Rushing Out | 2 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Tendency To Punch | 1 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Throwing | 7 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

| Physical Attributes | | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Acceleration | 20 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Agility | 4 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Balance | 20 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Jumping | 3 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Natural Fitness | 20 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Pace | 20 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Stamina | 20 | |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Strength | 20 | |

| Statistics | Apps | Conc | Cln | MoM | Yel | Red | Tck | Pass | Sh Tar | Fouls| Fls Ag | Av R |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Non Competitive | 10 | 4 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 0 | - | 47 % | - | 24 | - | 7.50 |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| League | 20 | 41 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | - | 47 % | - | 56 | - | 6.65 |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Cup | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | - | 50 % | - | 6 | - | 7.00 |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Continental | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | ---- |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| International | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | ---- |
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Overall | 22 | 43 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0 | - | 47 % | - | 62 | - | 6.68 |

Newky

The problem with the CA/PA system is that the ai bases its purchases on it which results in ai teams getting weaker over a few seasons while human managed teams get stronger as they are able to make judgements on which attributes are needed for a position.

I would hope that as computers have become more powerful since the series start that we are getting to a stage where a more complex model for ai player evaluation is possible without taking a huge performance hit.

skanky

i know its not going to be a simple thing but i'd love to get rid of CA/PA, if not just to annoy people who use editors and whatnot to see whos the best player to sign right away

stats over CA/PA anyday!

cheesebiscuit

Some fantastic posts in this thread, SI take note!

CA/PA has it's advantages and a similar system still has it's place in the game I think, but we can go more advanced and get more realism now.

SI evolve the game gradually each year and this could be their big project for FM2009.

I am tired of people using scouts and wanting to look at a little number that really makes the difference about a player they will sign. I'm also tired of the AI rating players based upon that number, when there are better players around.

The whole system needs reworking, from player values, CA/PA, stats and the way the AI reads everything. I think SI are up to the task, but it's a big project.

Neb

another GK update.

Now he 21. First choice England GK and also first choice AC Milan GK. Valued at £10.25m

Look at his attributes! Would he make your first team? let alone one of the best GK in the world?

| Pkd | Inf | Name | Aer | Cmd | Com | Ecc | Han | Kic | One | Ref | Rus | Pun | Thr |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| S1 | | Christian Abbiati | 17 | 16 | 16 | 5 | 19 | 15 | 15 | 19 | 13 | 15 | 12 |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| - | | Luciano Esposito | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| - | | Luca Italia | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| GK | | Goal Keeper | 7 | 9 | 10 | 20 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 11 | 5 | 1 | 10 |

He's 173cm tall. (only 5cm taller than Shaun Wright-Phillips) has jumping and agility of 4 and 6 respectively.

Although he's playing better, still not amazing. last full season at Derby averaged 6.92 and conceded 45 goals in 35 games. Interestingly he still fouled 130 times during the season! Thats 4 a game! I'm not entirely sure how that works, because shouldn't they have been penalties if he was in the box?! or if out of the box red/yellow cards?

Is this not proof that the AI uses CA to rate the players? Its also proof that it isn't a particularly effective way of doing it!

Ter

Some good points in here and it's certainly an interesting experiment you have got going Neb. :thup:

Starr_Man5

That really is odd, that the AI (I for Idiot) chooses players based purely on CA/PA and hasn't the faintest idea what attributes suit which position.

It certainly raises an awful lot of questions.....

...I'm not exactly sure what those questions are, but I'm sure they're there.

mitja

But IRL do we know they have good PA, or do they just have high skills compared to others in their age group?

Let me put it this way. When you look at a group of young players IRL, perhaps your own team's U18 squad, do you think "Ah, now all these players are of the same standard but I think Player X has high potential."?

Or do you think "Player X is head and shoulders above the rest of these muppets, I think he'll go on to become a star."?

You see the difference between the 2 statements? IRL there's no such thing as PA. How much a player then improves depends on a number of factors, for example:

Age
Determination
Ambition
First team opportunitites
Personal life
Training facilities available
Like for the coaching staff / manager
Happiness at club
etc.

There's no such thing as PA, it's an artificial concept that's been created especially for FM.

It still serves a purpose at the moment, but I think we're rapidly getting to the point whereby PA can fall by the wayside (And CA with it) as we can just use the other attributes to judge a player's abilities and potential to improve.

At the moment all attributes are just about as easy to improve as the rest, but it shouldn't be the case. Some should be easier to improve than others, and the ease of which any or all can be improved should be deterimined by the factors listed above. It's an ambitious change to make, but IMO one that needs to be made sooner rather than later as the CA / PA thing has gone as far as it can go. </BLOCKQUOTE>

:thup: