retired_kellyk

I am as dark as anyone else..there are some things I know a bit off, and this is one area of the game I really want to work on.

So let's start with a couple of assumptions:

(1)
As far as I know training works on the basis of CA and PA.Some attributes are more important to others and without using the Genie Scout Program I will have to defer to the training manual..or someone could explain this to all of us..for the benefit of mr.kite.

(2)
We also know that:
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">Strength: for Natural Fitness, Stamina, Strength, Work RateAerobic: for Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, ReflexesGoalkeeping: for Aerial Ability, Handling, Kicking, Throwing, One on OnesTactics: for Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Movement, Teamwork, Command of AreaBall Control: for Dribbling, First Touch, Technique, Flair, HeadingDefending: for Tackling, Marking, ConcentrationAttacking: for Passing, CreativityShooting: for Finishing, Long Shots, ComposureSet Pieces: for Crossing, Corners, Free Kicks, Penalties, Long Throws</pre>

Within each of these training areas, attributes all can't increase at the same factor so there must be weights assigned, so that some attributes have a greater rate of increase. For each position in the game there has to be an optimum balance in attributes for instance a Goalkeeper wouldn't need...Ball Control as much as Defending. And because there are different attributes in different categories a weight needs to be used...this part makes sense to me...what do you guys think? Am I on the right track?


(3)

We also know that the training loads have: Low, Medium, High and Intensive. Now I will make the assumption and it should be natural to assume that at:

Low: Attributes do not increase but maintain
Medium: Attributes increase over the long term but at a slow rate
High: Attributes increase by at least 1 point for a season
Intensive: Attributes increase by 1 but at a faster rate.

(4) A player has a CA & PA and that attributes get reassigned once he hits a peak...someone needs to explain this to me cos I do not understand this part.


1.So if what i say holds and a player does improve attributes over a course of time, what then would the difference between a youth and an adult be training wise? Needs?

2.Do you need a preseason? Honestly? That's what I thought last year..its still at the back of my mind.

Just my thoughts...before i head to sleep.

JohnSWA

An excellent iniative. This forum needs this thread.

(3)Talented youth players so far seemingly increases at an faster rate than described, with a lower intensivity setting.

(4) When a player has reached his peak. He won`t improve in attributes, unless there is a fall in some other attributes. This is currently happening in my game. This change is due to training.

I have never used pre-season with FM before, this year I thought of it. There are bound be some links dependant on your coaches attributes. They are put into the game for a reason. Like with players, there must be som linked attributes leading somewhere.

retired_cnote357

So for example if I used an intensive pre-season and the attributes I gained in stamina, strength, work rate etc would mean I'd get less attributes elsewhere unless the attributes I gained from pre-season decreased again?

I'm confused...

retired_nsample

I doubt if there is any definitive answers to these questions but my thoughts are:

The trainingn schedules will affect attributes but are only part of the package. The factors that will affect attribute increase will be:

Training schedules and Intensity
Training facilities
Number of coaches
Quality of coaches
How the coaches are allocated
The current level of the players CA and how close it is to the level of PA

As faeron said, if CA is close to PA then no matter what training you employ, attribute increase will be limited and larger increases in one attribute will lead to a drop in another one to ensure that the CA stays ther same if CA is equal to or close to PA

From what I see in the game, the only difference in adult and youth training is that youth training is slightly less intensive and has a slight imbalance towards skills training.

I have experimneted with pre season training and there is no doubt in my mind that if you have a preseason schedule that is tailored towards strength and aerobic training ( but not exclusively ) then players will regain full fitness quicker- this manifests itself in players being nearer to 100% when the season approaches. I have always used preseason training schedule for the first 3 weeks of preseason and then swap onto their normanl positional schedules.

JohnSWA

Also how much of his PA a player reaches is determined by his personality. Model Professionals, ambitious, determined players will work harder by them selves. Whilst players with other personalities will require coaches with amongst others good motivating skill to reach further. Flamboyant players needs coaches with good attributes of disclipline etc.

Also younger players determination, work-rate, stamina, natural fitness is important to consider. Young players ranking well with these attributes, will be able to train more/harder than other young players. This is a way to make up for a slightly lack of talent. These players are more prone to reaching their PA by training more.

Things to consider when employing coaches: The way I do it is to look at all the different back-room staff in the game world. I look at all the World Class/Continental reputed ones. If there is a pattern of attributes they all/most of them have high value for, I look for this in my coaches as well.

The advantage of young players is that you can shape them to the players you want. This is what training do. But also their morale is very important to consider. Players that are unhappy with training schedules, is not a good thing. Either you alter their schedule or bring in a coach that might change things around. Also let youngsters play/play as substitutes in matches where they can show themselves, is a good thing. This will build them up. There is so much to say about training, I don`t have the overall picture, but there is a lot for us to discover.

The different aspects will offcourse be on training schedules. As important as well is the different coaching attributes and player personalities.

retired_kellyk

In so far as my limited knowledge on training goes, and I'm glad this has got some response, is that its often better to get a good spread of coaches.

What I'm interested in clearing up is this:

1) To what extent can a youth be coached, how intensively? If we assume that a youth has room to grow should his OTL be intensive or medium? My gut says medium. Since attributes still increase

2)I agree that preseason fitness allows players to regain fitness but there is also a strong school of thought that believes you can keep them on the same schedule just increase the OTL in preseason...reduce it during the course of the season, and increase it once again when the season is over.

3)Why skills training for youth? As we know, most youth begin low natural fitness/stamina/pace; has anyone believed in focusing on strength early and then skills.

retired_neasp

In terms of workload youth should be set to medium. Anything high would mean they get injury and thu losing stats that was gained.

Work rate, technquie and determination is whats needed for faster development.

I think a memmber of SI should come in here and give us more infor on this cos training has changed alot since 06 and no one has been told how its changed.

The slow improvement is good to a certain extent, but what I feel is that the difference is not felt till the next season.

For example what I noticed is that when a player has improved (according to the training stats) it is not noted in his profile page till the next season when everything gets updated.

Im in my 3rd season and Rooney has improved alot since season 1 from 15 on finnishing to 17 and he is only 24 years old. Let say it took Rooney 6 months to increase his shooting stats from 16 to 17 (according to the training screen) that 1 increase will not be noted in his profile page till the next season.

So if during the 6 months Rooney has improved he will not be able to use that 17 finnishing stat till next season when the game updates itself. He has to continue to shoot with 16 points instead of 17. Even though he has improved his shooting according to the training screen.

Thats what I've noticed while playing the game.

Baring in mind this is with top class training factilites and 7 star coaches. It's took 1 year for a player to improve 1 point in some stats. Now for a lower league manager with poor training factilies and lets say 3 star coaches it must take them 2-3 years to notice a 1 point change in stats.

This is why I feel that training is bugged. Or is basically made too diffcult to do.

retired_pacman/allan

I have never taken a huge interest in training before, but I have recently started to look into it.

I am currently managing Torquay in League 1 (4th season, lol cant see to get out of the mud) and have adequate facilities and following
coaches:

Strenght: 5
Aerobic : 5
GK : 7
Tactics : 7
Ball C : 6
Def : 7
Att : 4
Shoot : 5
Set P : 4

I decided to check into how players at the club had developed over the last season, to see if I could get a clearer picture of how training works, or affects the players.

So here are my schedules, and their impact on the different players:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre"> GOALKEEPINGStrenght : Medium (Middle)Aerobic : Medium (Middle)Goalkeeping : Medium (High)Tactics : Light (High)Ball Control : Light (High)Defending : Medium (Low) * Not needed? Not showing on attributes overviewAttacking : Medium (Low) * Not needed? Not showing on attributes overviewShooting : Medium (Low) * Not needed? Not showing on attributes overviewSet Pieces : Medium (Low)GK (age 19)Strength : +3 (Stamina 1, Strength 2)Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : +3 (Handling 1, One on One 1, Throwing 1)Tactics : +4 (Anticipation 1, Command Of Area 1, Communication 1, Positioning 1)Ball Control : +2 (First Touch 1, Technique 1)Set Pieces : 0================================================= =====================================DEFENDINGStre nght : Medium (Low)Aerobic : Medium (Middle)Goalkeeping : NoneTactics : Medium (Middle)Ball Control : Medium (Low)Defending : Medium (Middle)Attacking : Medium (Middle)Shooting : Light (Medium)Set Pieces : Light (High)Defender #1 (Age 23)Strength : +1 (Strength)Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : NATactics : +1 (Decision)Ball Control : +2 (Flair 1, Heading 1)Defending : 0 Attacking : 0Shooting : -2 (Composure -1, Long Shots -1)Set Pieces : +1 (Long Throws)Defender #2 (Age 24)Strength : +1 (Strength)Aerobic : 0Goalkeeping : NATactics : +1 (Off the ball)Ball Control : +1 (First Touch)Defending : +2 (Marking 1, Tackling 1)Attacking : +1 (Passing)Shooting : -2 (Composure -1, Finishing -1)Set Pieces : +2 (Corners 1, Crossing 1)Defender #3 (Age 25)Strength : 0 Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : +1 (Flair)Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : -2 (Composure -1, Finishing -1)Set Pieces : 0Defender #4 (Age 25)Strength : +2 (Strenght 1, Stamina 1)Aerobic : 0 Goalkeeping : NATactics : +1 (Teamwork)Ball Control : +1 (Technique)Defending : +1 (Tackling)Attacking : +1 (Passing)Shooting : -2 (Composure)Set Pieces : +2 (Long Throws 1, Penalties 1)Defender #5 (Age 29)Strength : 0Aerobic : 0Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : 0Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0Defender #6 (Age 30)Strength : -1 (Stamina) Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : NATactics : +1 (Off the ball)Ball Control : +1 (Flair)Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : -3 (Composure -2, Long shots -1)Set Pieces : 0Defender #7 (Age 34)Strength : -4 (Stamina -3, Strength -1) Aerobic : -7 (Acceleration -2, Agility -1, Jumping -1, Pace -2, Reflexes -1)Goalkeeping : NATactics : -1 (Decisions)Ball Control : -4 (Dribbling -1, First Touch -1, Heading -1, Technique -1)Defending : -1 (Tackling)Attacking : -2 (Passing -1, Creativity -1)Shooting : -2 (Finishing -1, Long Shots -1)Set Pieces : -5 (Corners -1, Crossing -2, Freekicks -1, Long Throws -1)================================================ ======================================MIDFIELDERSS trenght : Medium (Middle)Aerobic : Medium (Middle)Goalkeeping : NoneTactics : Medium (Middle)Ball Control : Medium (Middle)Defending : Medium (Low)Attacking : Medium (Low)Shooting : Medium (Low)Set Pieces : Medium (Low)Midfielder #1 (Age 22)Strength : 0Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : 0Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0Midfielder #2 (Age 23)Strength : 0Aerobic : 0Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : 0Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0================================================= =====================================WINGERSStreng ht : Medium (Middle)Aerobic : Medium (Middle)Goalkeeping : NoneTactics : Medium (Low)Ball Control : Medium (Low)Defending : Medium (Middle)Attacking : Medium (High)Shooting : Medium (Low)Set Pieces : Medium (Low)Winger #1 (Age 22)Strength : 0Aerobic : 0Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : 0Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0Winger #2 (Age 23)Strength : 0Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : NATactics : +1 (Decisions)Ball Control : 0Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0Winger #3 (Age 25)Strength : 0Aerobic : 0Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : 0Defending : 0Attacking : +1 (Creativity)Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0================================================= =====================================ATTACKERSStre nght : Medium (Middle)Aerobic : Medium (Middle)Goalkeeping : NoneTactics : Medium (Low)Ball Control : Medium (Low)Defending : Light (Low)Attacking : High (Low)Shooting : Middle (High)Set Pieces : Middle (Low)Attacker #1 (Age 29)Strength : 0Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : 0Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0Attacker #2 (Age 24)Strength : +2 (Stamina 1, Work Rate 1)Aerobic : +1 (Reflexes)Goalkeeping : NATactics : +2 (Positioning 1, Team Work 1)Ball Control : +1 (Heading)Defending : 0Attacking : 0Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0Attacker #3 (Age 24)Strength : 0Aerobic : 0Goalkeeping : NATactics : 0Ball Control : 0Defending : -1 (Concentration)Attacking : +2 (Creativity 1, Passing 1)Shooting : 0Set Pieces : 0</pre>


So what does this mean? Well, Im not sure - but there is a couple of things that stands out to me:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Reflexes: Increases for most players, whilst the other attributes in Aerobic, does not increase (Heavy weight on reflexes, perhaps?)
<LI> Attributes can increase even though training is on low - but it must be in the higher range (GK rising 4 points even when on low)
<LI> Youngsters attributes can rise quickly even when not playing (GK played one match last season, but attributes increased by 13 points)
<LI> As soon as training level is dropped to medium range of low, the attributes starts to decrease(look esp. on defenders-shooting)
<LI> Older players attributes decrease heavily, even though they play regurlarly (I thought decision would be an almost constant attribute)
<LI> Players attributes seems to increase slower in the areas with the worst coaches.
</UL>

Thats about what I have figured out so far - or think I have figured out, lol.


Questions:
Weight to attributes?
Yes it seems so, from what I have seen so far - and as you hopefully see in the numbers provided

Training load?
Players can increase even if their on low load - but it has to be in the upper part. This can be useful, to adjust the total training load

Youngsters vs Adults?
I havent worked with youth schedules, but youngsters on adults schedules seems to get better with lower workload than the older ones(faster increase with less effort). And youngsters (U23) seems to get unhappier alot more often when the total workload is near the upper medium line. All my U23 players complained when the schedule was near that line, so I had to adjust it down some points to keep all players happy.

Preseason?
I dont know if you really need them, but in my case it has helped. The way I have made the preseason is to have highest possible in Strength, Aerobic and Setpieces. I use this for about a month, before switching back. What I have seen then, is that these three areas rises with one point within that month, and in most players stays there for the rest of the season. Some players get additional increase, and some have fallen back to the original level after a couple of months. But none(apart from the two old goats in defence) has decreased beyond the original level). So do we need them? Im not sure, but as I said they helped the players in the beginning of the season at least.

Skills training for youths?
I havent experimented with that yet, but I agree with you that since the physical attributes of youngsters are low, it is that area that should be focused on in FM training.
Perhaps a 70/30 schedule, so that you maintain the technical skills to. When you see players starting to get better physics, you could perhaps go towards a 50/50 load? Just throwing out thoughts here now.



Well, that was all I had to say - Dont know how intelligent it was, but at least its my thoughts

And it beats reading about Rational Unified Process, and Modelling - which I was supposed to do now

firefighterhilf

Good thread and I just wanted to add one thing I noticed recently.

I have a different training schedule for each position (so GK, defenders, midfielders, wingers and strikers) and generally what I do is lower the overall intensity from just below heavy to the lower end of medium towards the end of the season, as this is where I usually struggle to keep my players fitness up to around 96 - 100%.

This season (my 3rd) after using my usual pre-season training, which is pretty much the same as everyone elses, I put all my players back in the schedule that suited their position. However, I completely forgot to up the workload from about 2 notches into medium to my usual one notch below heavy. About half way through the season I noticed that my players technical and mental attributes had not gone back up at all after their drop in pre-season, and in some cases had dropped.

Eventually I realised what I'd done and upped the workload and noticed an almost instant increase in the attributes.

So the point is there seems to be a very big difference between having a low-medium workload and a just less than heavy workload.

I'm intrigued about concentrating youth training on physical attributes as someone mentioned and I think I'll give this a try and see how it works. Although I'm sure one of the in-game tips says that you shouldn't over-train youth players due to them still developing.
I wonder how much of an effect this actually does have in the game. I'm going to set up a couple of youth schedules, one more intensive and see which seems to work better in the long term.

retired_pamjoseph

Now a newbie question ^^. Where can I see how many points have my players increased? I suppose that you will tell me "in the player screen, when you tick on 'Effect of training on player'". If it is so, i have the following questions:

1-Those arrows show the variation of the last year? couple months? Anything else?

2-Since there are different kinds of arrows, how many points do any arrow show? 1 for little better, 3 for maximum?

3-What happens with it if a player gets injured because then all arrows drop, but then when he recovers, they raise again, so it makes me think that those high arrows show the variation compared to the period that player was injured.

Also I can see arrows showing the effect of training in every player, but I don't know what they exactly show

Please help!