Bacardi

Because as of lately there has been a difference in opinions on how to respond to certain questions with answers that can be found in the Help files of Photoshop or the manual that comes with it, allow me to post these lines written by ThE_JacO, a moderator of the XSI forum over at cgtalk. I do not post the complete text as it is clearly written with 3D in mind, but these quotes state very well how I personally feel about this. His English is much better than mine. (He's Italian):

"I think it's incredibly cool that some people (and it's very often the newcomers) are disposed to spoonfeed other users, it shows one of the most amazing human traits, that is the inclination to share knowledge, which is ultimately why we are all here I suppose.

If you feel like doing it, do so; it's surely not against the rules of Cgtalk but for those who require it you should remember one thing:
learning is a process, as all processes it represents an evolution.
If you just keep bumping into obstacles, wait for them to be removed for you, or to be taught how to perform a basic walkaround, you will be slow, and will never be independant.
Assuming you have an IQ that is average or above, what sets the real pros apart from the rest is, very simply put, the ability to learn, analyze and resolve.
If you don't force yourself into research for these very simple things, you'll be totally baffled the day you will be required to work on anything that is more challenging then a flying logo, this is true for anything, any form of art and any form of tech.
This sad trend that is emerging everyday more in this industry, of focusing on tools and memorizing workarounds or functions, is really not gonna help anybody.

I said it a lot of times and I'll say it again, what really matters IS YOUR STATE OF MIND !
The mental structure to tackle problems that you can only train yourself into if you do things yourself.
The will to study seemingly unrelated material to reach a higher understanding of the process.
The commitment to do things even when they seem totally boring.
The ability to focus, up to the point it borders stubborness, until you UNDERSTAND."

and

"since the initial post was mine, let me introduce a clarification...

the post was NOT intended to prevent people from asking simple questions, less then less wanted to promote any form of elitarism.

all questions are legit someone said, and I agree to the extent that implies that BEFORE asking the question you already spent some efforts on doing your best to figure it out.
if the manual was lacking, if you feel uncertain about parts of it, if you wonder the practical applications of something, or if you just want to share your newly found out knowledge, in the hope that someone more seasoned will also fill in the blanks, by all means do so; but only after you spent a little of your time on the issue please.

this is NOT something you do to spare people's bandwidth or time, this is something you have to do for yourself in first place.

the inciting to focus and find the willpower to study was the hinge of my post, and not some sick form of elitarism ."

As always: follow your own hearts and minds. This is so well formulated that I only give it as food for thought.

Thanks, ThE_JacO

[righton]

ladyfinger007

Very well said, thanks for sharing, Erik!

kenny62

The writer makes some valid points, but overlooks the fact that many users have limited time to spend on overcoming obstacles, and in the face of continuing limited progress, may simply give up on learning to create artwork.

As an example, I certainly didn't feel that the three days I spent unsuccessfully trying to recreate "the golden interface bar" found on Eyeball Design was time well-spent.

RD

MsOz

Good point, Kenny.
But, you made the effort to follow the tutorial for the Golden Bar.
I think the point here is for those people who will not make ANY effort to even FIND the tutorial, they just post a "How do I do this effect?" type of question, with little to no effort expended to even seek an existing answer, preferring to be "spoon fed" by others.

If you make an effort, and have problems, that is one thing. It is an entirely different situation from seeing something on the web, and rather than taking any time to find an answer, merely posting a question on a Forum such as this, expecting someone else to hold your hand and tell you the same information that you could have found out yourself, had you only made an effort.

fray

I also think that there is some slight 'knee jerk' reaction to people posting a 'simple'/n00b question.
Why didnt the person check the manual?
Does this person even HAVE a manual?
If their program is an illegal download should I answer their question?

Today's typical web user is a teenager. The teens in today's society typically want the answer immediately and with the least amount of effort on their part. Our society is "immediate satisfaction for me", we want things done now and five minutes ago. We are constantly rushing to do this and rushing to do that. This behavior is being ingrained into the kids and I believe it will continue. I know that life was 'slower' for my parents than it is for me. The way technology and media has advanced has increased the communication times between people which has made life more 'urgent' or 'faster' if you will.
I believe that life will be 'faster' for my children too, unlesss I take steps to make it not so.

I have a tendency to help someone when I can. I also know if I am having a bad day that I am not going to call someone a st00pid n00b for asking a simple/easy question. In those cases I'll just say nothing. I know there is someone else who will be able to asnwer the question in my place because there are many helpful people online.

I'd like to think "teach those to fish and they will eat for a lifetime" philosophy works for me and those I help.

Ok, well... I think I blabbed on enough...

I like this smiley ---> 8[

MsOz

The utilization of a manual doesn't even really enter into this, Fray. There are TONS of tutorials on the Web for learning to do all kinds of effects, and there are equally TONS of articles on how to use Photoshop. We're talking taking 5 minutes to look up the information, or taking 30 seconds to post the question on a Forum and expect someone else to do the work for them...especially the "Stupid Noob" questions that have been already answered countless times prior, such as "How do I remove the background from a picture," or "How do I make a circle, rounded rectangle, ect." with no effort made to even see if someone else has asked the question.

In order to teach someone "how to fish," they have to at least want to learn. So many times anymore, newbies to Photoshop don't even want to learn. They just say "I need a fish," and expect to have someone hand it to them...

BTW, Welcome to PSG! Your wit and sense of humor should be well appreciated here!

John1

Can someone explain to me what the purpose of this board is when everybody has a manual, help, tutorials, internet, newsgroup articles, etc?
This all doesn't make any sense. I think it's important to know why for example a guy like Mark used some of his precious time to write several tutorials that deal purely with the basics of Photoshop, most of it that can also be found in the manual or help. I tell you why, simply because he loves to help people, he loves to share. Sure, even he might think once a while; "On no, not that same question again", but the important difference is that he then decides to write a tutorial. Lots of people on this site have done the same. People like them make it possible that you CAN advice members to look it up with Google!
The internet has become such a great source of information, exactly because of this approach. My view has always been; you either help people or you don't, but you can't force people not to be lazy, because trust me, most of them are really smart enough to know that there are sources like help, manual, internet, books, etc.

Just my view on things

MsOz

The purpose of these boards is to SHARE information, regarding new ideas, new techniques, new ways of doing things, or deconstructing an effect to recreate it. Sharing implies a two-way interaction, not just being a repository of answers for the lazy.

That is a far different thing from "spoon-feeding" the basics to those too lazy to even bother using a search engine, much less look in the help files or the User Manual.

Here, we explore the tools and techniques of Photoshop, and (usually) post questions when we hit "bumps" in the execution of a tutorial, or don't quite understand some of the concepts behind the various tools or techniques we learn.

If you notice, Mark doesn't by and large reply to the questions that have the answers more than readily available to anyone willing to make some effort at finding them. Even the tutorials you find on the web quite often state "some knowledge of Photoshop is required to follow this tutorial."

Mark has been kind enough to create "basic" tutorials, but quite often, the posters of "stupid noob" questions haven't even bothered to read those!

Yes, the lazy will never be eliminated. BUT, by making an effort to inform them that some effort is required on their part to learn this application, everyone's time is better spent SHARING and GROWING, rather than hand holding those expecting to create great effects with just a couple of clicks...

They may be smart enough to read the manual, or type in a search engine query, but that doesn't mean they are smart enough to try and find the answers. It takes some prodding from those of us who HAVE made the effort to learn or find an answer before posting a simple question that has been asked countless times before.

berk10

See, now I feel dumb for asking some of my prior questions...I suppose I could go to the trouble of looking in a manual but someitmes if I ask around I find out new techniques from other masters of the trade. In some cases it takes a special way of explaining things to some people who just "aren't getting it". Manuals and tutorials can be confusing and intimidating...
I enjoy helping people expecially when I can teach them something new that I learned from someone else.
Thats why I joined this board...

yeah, I know, good for me...

MsOz

Finding out new techniques implies that you already have a grasp of the basics. If you are posting on forums for answers to the basics, then you are not learning anything new or better from others, you are only taking advantage of their time and generousity by having them tell you the very same basic information (how certain tools work, how to do the "basic" effects that tutorials exist by the boatload explaining, etc.) because you're "intimidated" by a tutorial...sorry, but how do you think so many others have learned before you?

New techniques, I agree. That is how we all grow. But basic noob questions you should be able to answer for yourself, uh-uh...Show that you want to learn enough to make some effort beyond being able to type in a forum question in IM abbreviations, or worse yet, upload some image off the web and ask "how do I do this effect?" Like any skill, you have to take some time and learn it.