Klaatu Baradda Nikto

Greetings PSGers,
As an additional twist on this topic, there is often no better way to learn a topic than by teaching it (e.g., making a tutorial of it).
Part of the reward of "sharing" a technique or solving a particular problem is the education it provides to the one sharing it! This is also, btw, something completely missed by many newbies.
The advanced user (aka, poweruser) is someone who has actually READ the manuals, done the tutorials, explored and experimented far beyond the average user. Yet, as knowledgeable as they may be, teaching others offers an additional boost to knowledge by organizing thoughts, filling in the "blanks" or providing the opportunity to understand a technique more thoroughly. The advanced level is often one of nuances, slight adjustments and refinements.

MsOz

Good point, Klaatu.
But the question then arises as to how many times should a low-level technique be taught when the answer could be easily found with a bit of effort, oft times faster than posting the question and waiting for the answer.
Also, the discussion here is in regards to the querier making some effort to solve a question on their own, or merely asking for someone to "teach" them, when, on occassion, there is no intent to learn, merely to have someone do the work for them once they provide a basic image.
The sharing of nuances cannot be achieved without some grasp of the basics. The level of intent can many times be seen by the amount of effort expended in finding the answer for oneself before posting a query.

Klaatu Baradda Nikto

Greetings MsOz,
Not sure if you completely understood the point we were making. We do understand everything you have said as well as the main thrust of this thread. Preaching to the chior here.

Our point was to highlight an issue that may well be overlooked in this eager pursuit to curb the newbie impulse of taking the lazy route. Namely, how a certain symbiosis takes place between student and teacher. In the process of instructing, the teacher learns a great deal more than the student. This certainly is beneficial for advanced users to know. Isn't it?

From another perspective, a newbie (at anything) is basically uninitiated and has not yet developed the skills or sensibilites of the advanced veteran. It's neither wise nor practical to try to eliminate what is ultimately a natural newbie instinct (and dare we say, a natural step in the initiation process) to ask stupid questions. Just remember, there will ALWAYS be beginners. Lifting consciousness is a group effort. The challenge for the advance user is really in being patient.

In the effort to help advanced users with this patience, it may be useful for them to understand how a deeper understanding and greater expertise can be developed in the process of helping others.

In truth, we are all students... just at different levels.

MsOz

First off, Klaatu, the issue you are trying to "highlight," of the symbiosis of the sharing of knowledge, experience, and expertise is not overlooked on these Forums. That should be more than obvious by a simple exploration of the various areas here, ranging from the NEW USER Area, to the Technical Q&A, to the Quick Tips & Techniques. It is not so much of an "eager pursuit to curb the newbie impulse of taking the lazy route," as is it an effort to guide the newbie into a smooth interaction between learning a new software application AND learning how the concept of sharing information is not the same as being spoon-fed. Perhaps it is you who does not fully understand what is being stated here...

Klaatu, you give far too much leeway and credence to new users with such a patronizing attitude. It is NOT a newbie "impulse" to take the lazy way, nor is it a "natural newbie instinct" to ask stupid questions. For those truly wishing to learn to use a software application, there is more of a desire to learn than to be lazy. Stupid questions are seldom asked by those desiring to learn, as they are seeking answers; their questions will be quite distinct and discernable from the lazy users, as the questions will not be those asked (and answered) countless times previously. They will be questions relating to not understanding something, or problems relating to the function of a tool or a technique. They will not be the questions of "Hi, I just got Photoshop, and don't know how to use it, but I want to make this really cool complex image that I saw on this website. Can someone here show me how to do it?"

Just because there will always be beginners, Klaatu, does not change the fact for one moment that the knowledge is already out there. If a question has been answered, and the answer is there for the taking, it does nothing to raise the consciousness of the group to repeat the answer that has been given, and is documented and easily retrievable with a minimum of effort on the questioner's part. There is a fine line of difference between "patience" and being taken advantage of. The latter is NOT the purpose of these forums, in that there is no mandatory obligation for the advanced users to fulfill every whim of the new users who are unwilling to make that modicum of effort. When we are presented with sincere efforts and questions are posed in the interest of sharing information, certainly you will have noticed how many of the members, both advanced and new users, will make a concerted effort to discuss situations and offer various solutions in an effort to clarify and help with understanding. For those too lazy to make efforts at finding an answer, and who merely post their tutorial wish list as one would order fast food at a drive through, gentle directions to the use of this forum's search engine, or a web search are given. Not with a lack of patience, but more often with a genuine wish to help the student learn to access the answers already in existance, thereby enabling all of us to continue to move forward, each at their own pace, but without hobbling the advanced users in the role of "philanthropic Photoshop babysitters."

Klaatu, why do you feel that advanced users are in need of help to understand this patience? There is no lack of understanding of the mutual fulfillment that can be gained by the master helping the pupil. You are confusing one's desire to learn and the skills gained by doing with the desire to have the answer simply handed to one on a platter upon demand, with little to no effort on the part of the student themselves. You say that I am preaching to the choir, when in truth, it is yourself who is missing the nuances of perception here by your misdirected belief that newbies are somehow being mistreated or deprived by having some expectation of self-involvement present and expressed to them.

The deeper understanding and expertise that is gained by the sharing of information and learning is quite well and thriving on this site, and has been for quite awhile now. Your presentation of mutual symbiosis as regards the assistance of newbies is well known and accepted, and widely practiced both here, and on many other art forums. This thread was started, and has prevailed, for those users not understanding the concept of "don't ask for help, if you are not willing to help yourself." The further discussions herein are merely to continue to try to clarify the perception that "spoon feeding" answers instead of encouraging discovery and experimentation is, in the long run, detrimental to all parties concerned, as the new users do not learn these two most valuable of skills, and the advanced users are relegated to nursemaid, pointing out the same basic answers over and over, instead of progressing forward, interacting with the other users and evolving ever new and changing techniques and effects. There is no need to continue re-inventing the wheel. The basics are quite well covered by the User Manual, the online Help files (F1), and search engines, both forum specific and World Wide Web capable containing countless articles and tutorials relating to most effects that the new users wish to emulate.

It is never too early for a newbie to start learning to do for themselves. That is not restricting their sharing of knowledge, that is just allowing them to progress at their own speed by their own choice, instead of making others slow down and do it for them. After all, that is how most of us "advanced users" got to this point. We studied, experimented, and practiced. This concept also, is nothing new to this site, nor many of the better art forums on the 'Web.

For those with the time to spare and the inclination to provide in-depth, step by step instructions to requests, yes, it can give one a sense of satisfaction in helping another to accomplish a task, but to do so robs the true student of the learning process, as memory is best sharpened with hands-on experience, with helpful signposts along the way, not someone making the journey for you.

Welles

Welcome to the forums Klaatu Baradda Nikto. I'm one of the people who often try answer questions with fairly comprehensive answers. I don't even have to justify it ( ) but I agree with your point of view and am glad you added it.

8[ [size=18px]Go Gort![/size] 8[

The Coach

It's all so simple; you help people or you don't. I never understood the whole purpose of this thread.

See, I'm not going to advice a beginner (I don't like the word "newbie") who just figured out how to use a mask, to stop helping other beginners with the same problem. I don't see any harm in members helping members. Most beginners are actually very happy when for once they're able to help someone else. The result; two happy beginners. And that's what it's all about; joy. Let's be honest; how many times have we read; "I'm a complete beginner, but hopefully soon I can do something in return by helping others".
Photoshopgurus is for most people not a preparation for an ACE exam, it's about a community of people having fun with Photoshop, nothing more, nothing less.

My experience with what people call "spoon feeding" has been positive; you get people excited with a rather overwhelming tool like Photoshop. It leads to more and more people who show interest in this beautiful program.

Let's say someone is interested in graphics but who has never worked with any related software. Give them Photoshop, F1, Google and a manual or sit down with them for 2 hours.
Which approach has the highest probability that the user will continue to use Photoshop? I know, because I've seen the results over and over.

Let's make it clear though; I agree 100% that "spoon feeding" the same person over and over has to stop at one point, but to get people really excited with this tool you sometimes have to give them that extra push. I 100% believe in this approach and that it will lead to more people using photoshop and experiencing the same joy. One has to come up with good arguments to change my view on this. Until now I haven't met that person.

It's all about finding the right balance between this "spoon feeding" and helping people who have hard time to find the right answers on their own and I think Welles and Mark (but also many others) have shown that it's possible to have this balance, without restricting people in the way they should ask questions.

I just wanted to added my view and that's the only thing I'm going to add to this thread.

MsOz

Well Joe, just keep in mind that all the praise you've just given is in response to a forum that embodies most of the concepts discussed in this thread.

If you look close, you will find that by and large, you don't see a plethora of "stewpid newb" questions, nor do you find a vast and overwhelming sea of "refrigerator art" postings. Due to the efforts of Mark and many others here, most members approach this dance with the enthusiasm and intelligence of those truly wanting to learn. It's part of what makes PSG a worthwhile forum for advanced users as well as beginners.

Other forums, who have swung too far in the overindulgence towards non-motivated technique wishers, have lost much of their talent, as there is little reward or satisfaction in continuous spoon-feeding. It's not spoon-feeding the same person over and over that is the problem; it is the never ending stream of the spoon-feedees, and their belief that they are the only person to have ever had their question come up (such as putting someone into a picture), and their lack of effort to see the solutions that have already been answered for the previous dozens of newbies with the same situation. Without a thread such as this one, far too much time and bandwidth would be wasted going over well mapped ground because such beginners are too lazy to make an effort to look.

"It's so simple." Were it only your time, possibly so. But, since newbies, in addition to inexperience and excitement, also can tend to be selfish and impatient due to inexperience in Forum interactions and netiquette, things are not as simple as they appear to you from an individual standpoint. Hence, threads such as this one on forums such as this one (and no, PSG is NOT the only art forum to attempt to filter out the "users" and "do it for me's" that patronize them). It's called raising the awareness level of users. Sometimes, people need a bit of a wake-up call to realize that maybe they are taking advantage of others by expecting to have answers given to them, in detail, step by step, when it was already done last week, or last month. There is no harm in helping each other. That is interaction. We are talking those who make no effort at interaction beyond posting their question. No using the search function to see if the question's been asked and/or answered. No posted examples of what techniques/effects were attempted in an effort to solve the query, just a "How do I make this kewl effect? I don't know how to use any of the tools other than the paintbrush"-type of queries.

By all means, knock yourself out helping any and every beginner you come across. After you find yourself posting an easily found, popular link for the umpteenth time, or explaining that the crop tool is really, REALLY well explained in the User Manual or Online help files, you may find that the spirit of selfless sharing becomes somewhat dulled, because you are not sharing your skills, you're spoon-feeding such basic, commonly found knowledge, that you are less of an artist interacting as you are 411 Directory assistance. But hey, that's how some people justify their reason to Live. No one ever replies to such efforts with a "Why'd you tell him how to do that? Why didn't you make him go look it up first?", so don't worry about it.

This thread merely displays that spoon-feeding is not a granted right to those visiting forums, that self-effort is appreciated by all in the learning arena, and that everyone in a forum benefits when interactions move forward, rather than repeatedly covering the same ground again and again. I can't speak for you, but my idea of fun here at PSG is not seeing the same type of post requesting tips to make a "crystal sig" pop up every 3-4 days, ya know? It is precisely the "restricting" of asking those type of questions, or encouraging spoon-feeding that makes things more enjoyable for everyone. I think if you check many of Mark's replies to questions, you will see that he encourages exploration, and will often provide little hints or teasers, but seldom jumps right in and answers questions with spelled out mini-tutorials for those topics well-known and documented...

People having a hard time finding answers on their own again implies that some effort was made in the first place. That is NOT what this topic is about. So, your staunch stance on helping is a moot argument. That is not the issue. The issue is spoon-feeding those who make little to no effort to find an answer beyond starting a new thread asking for someone to spell it all out in detail, okay? You don't have to understand this thread unless you are one of those type of individuals.

Klaatu Baradda Nikto

Greetings MsOz,
Your passion in this is compelling and greatly admired. We withdraw our statements with many apologies for bringing up the issue.

Klaatu Baradda Nikto

Greetings Welles,
Thank you very much for the welcome. As lurkers, we have admired your work and expertise here for sometime. Gort is particularly flattered and wants your avatar rivetted to his forehead.

Welles

[bustagut]