krustie

Since the UEFA report press release and discussion surrounding it was sensationalized and inflammatory I thought I'd create a new thread with a (hopefully) neutral focus.

In this past season's CL and UC we saw a few reports of crowd trouble. Sometimes in the stadium amongst rival supporters and sometimes outside the stadium or in the streets. 4 of the most high profile occurrences involved English clubs (Liverpool, Man Utd, Tottenham, West Ham). While the other English clubs (Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle, Blackburn) were not involved in any such problems (that I'm aware of).

The English press and clubs are always quick to point the finger at organizers of the matches, too few tickets, poor security, no turnstiles, etc. On the surface these reasons might explain some of the problems but if they were the sole or even major cause then why don't we see these problems in the domestic leagues where they use the same stadiums and same (or less) security?

We also don't see a direct link amongst domestic league problems and European ones. Spanish clubs are known to have large groups of ultras that follow their clubs but you rarely hear reports of problems when they play in European competitions.

I'm not suggesting in any way that this is a new problem or that it's isolated to English clubs so please add your thoughts about clubs from other countries and leagues.

Dan

I would say the incidents involving English fans are 'high profile' because of the media attention they get and the amount of interest there is in the English game.

When you think of the stabbings that regularly occur when Italian clubs play in Europe (something like 30 stabbings of English fans in Italy in the past couple of years), and Turkish teams (Leeds fans murdered a few years ago), or the Feyenoord fans who went rioting in Nancy, you realize that English crowd troubles are not as bad as other countries', yet they are always made out to be so.

RafaTheGaffer

Hmmm, good points.Now that i think of it noone was injured in riots caused by english fans in recent years.At least that's my impression.

There is prejudice against them mainly because of the 80s.There is also the fact that the English NT and english clubs have massive away support.You can't cause trouble if you are not there.There is a problem with english fans and excessive drinking though.

Villa88

I'm not dismissing the troubles with local fans in f.e. Italy or Turkey because they are huge - no pun intended, but the irony of it all is that english fans are nearly always involved in these troubles in international games.

English fans have set a standard by their behaviour in the past and now the local hooligans want to test if the english walk the talk when they arrive to the italian or turkish ground. I saw recently a documentary from WC 2006 that showed how the german hooligans welcomed the chance to start a row with the english. It's too easy to do that because there are too many drunken fools who want to get a reputation among travelling football fans.

BBC NEWS | Programmes | Panorama | Hooligans

You can find it at the usual places if you search for: hooligans untold story - panorama special

Dan

I'm sure you're right about locals wanting to test themselves, Danne. Unfortunately the late 70's and 80's have ensured that England willl always have a reputation as hooligans, no matter how much we try and improve things (and things have undoubtedly improved).

I still maintain that the British media, and the interest in it, contributes a lot to our image though. Take the link that you included above for example, the BBC is naturally going to concentrate on English issues, yet the BBC is probably one of the most widely read websites in the world. So, a lot of people don't get to hear / read about the Polish and German hooligans for example that were as prominent, if not more so, in last year's World Cup.

That being said, it's clear England hasn't got rid of it's hooligan problem, although I think the issues originally being discussed in this thread are more issues of public disorder instead of 'hooligans rioting'. I remember regularly seeing on the telly in the eighties plenty of full on riots - they seem to have gone at least these days (for now anyway).